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Post by sonofsnowshower2 on Feb 27, 2023 9:06:24 GMT -8
One other thought, which instantly puts me in the forefront of the contest for this year's title of "Captain Obvious." Grier can call this anything he wants, but this is a full-blown, blow-it-all-up re-build. My guess is that he's looking at the porous defense and thinking that D is the area to shore up first. IDK. I hope there's a long-term plan, though.
And another obvious thought, if it's going to be a defense first team, it's goodbye EK65.
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Post by caopine on Feb 27, 2023 9:47:42 GMT -8
Would we have been able to come up with the cap space to sign Timo next year and wait for a better offer? Is the return so poor because we were the ones who were desperate to move him vs the buying teams? When Timo says that no contract talks are happening with SJ, it kind of tips the hand that we 100% need to move him and are stuck- thus we will take what we can get. It's hard to bargain when you can't walk away and the other side knows it.
It's not just this trade. David on the SJHN forum made a funny comment that it's as if GMMG wants an entire team of 3rd line grinders who are "hard to play against." I know this is limited by salary cap issues etc but the moves and the people we've traded or let walk- it seems like MG wants a team of Mike Griers (and liked him as a player). The game has changed. Wonder how Eklund et al will be treated next year.
If I'm way off base or don't understand that salary cap issues made it impossible to move other players out to make space etc, feel free to let me know. I don't follow that stuff closely. But even if MG wasn't willing to roll the dice on this, it would be nice if it appeared that he was willing to and that we weren't absolutely 100% stuck and set on moving Timo before the deadline.
But this trade along with other moves thus far really seem to bode for a long decade as a Sharks fan.
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Post by NashvilleShark on Feb 27, 2023 10:12:15 GMT -8
Timo is the first domino to fall. Karl will most likely be moved over the summer when it will be easier to make a deal from a financial stand point. I wouldn't be surprised to see Cooch moved either this summer or by next season's TDL. Grier is going to try and shed long term, high dollar commitments. As much as it pains me to say it, I wish the previous interim GM didn't sign Hertl to an extension. He's not had that great of a season, and I'm hoping it's just an off year for him. However, if his play over the last 2-3 months is any indication of what he's going to be like long term? ugh...
The return on Timo seems pretty underwhelming. NJ gets a proven player, SJ gets a low first this year, a probable low second next year, a middle six projected F, and a couple of prospects that even NJ projects to be B-C level. Wow...
I commented in the Preds game day thread that Grier was probably going to begin to gut the roster and that he'd probably be doing the right thing. While it might be the right thing to do, I'm questioning Grier's ability to get decent returns on the team's players.
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Post by seiched on Feb 27, 2023 10:28:35 GMT -8
Timo is the first domino to fall. Karl will most likely be moved over the summer when it will be easier to make a deal from a financial stand point. I wouldn't be surprised to see Cooch moved either this summer or by next season's TDL. Grier is going to try and shed long term, high dollar commitments. As much as it pains me to say it, I wish the previous interim GM didn't sign Hertl to an extension. He's not had that great of a season, and I'm hoping it's just an off year for him. However, if his play over the last 2-3 months is any indication of what he's going to be like long term? ugh... The return on Timo seems pretty underwhelming. NJ gets a proven player, SJ gets a low first this year, a probable low second next year, a middle six projected F, and a couple of prospects that even NJ projects to be B-C level. Wow... I commented in the Preds game day thread that Grier was probably going to begin to gut the roster and that he'd probably be doing the right thing. While it might be the right thing to do, I'm questioning Grier's ability to get decent returns on the team's players. Hertl was never a real 1C, he is an okay 2C, but with a huge contract that can never be moved...the last nail in the coffin from the DW tenure. Couture was never a 1C, a decent 2C, that likely can never be moved Vlasic...nuff said The team cannot compete and be a contender while we have these 3 huge contracts for declining players (yes hertl is declining, I love his style though)....maybe GMMG knows this, maybe not...his moves so far are suspect, time will tell but we are no where close to having a turn around, even when we do get Bedard...  |
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Post by peanutgallery on Feb 27, 2023 10:33:11 GMT -8
I don’t know anything about the players we got back (other than what I’ve read today). But if you go by Devils’ fans reactions, they gave up basically some afterthought crap and a couple of low first rounders (at best) for the best player available who perfectly fits their needs short term and long term. They are absolutely giddy with excitement. Doesn’t make me feel too good about the return.
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Post by seiched on Feb 27, 2023 11:00:08 GMT -8
I don’t know anything about the players we got back (other than what I’ve read today). But if you go by Devils’ fans reactions, they gave up basically some afterthought crap and a couple of low first rounders (at best) for the best player available who perfectly fits their needs short term and long term. They are absolutely giddy with excitement. Doesn’t make me feel too good about the return. Of course they are, they literally didn't have to give up any of their A prospects...GMMG wanted a D prospect and Muk is the best he got and now his job to paint the situation as rosy and what was best, but reality is we do not have a high ceiling prospect or young talent at all, just a bunch of potential middle line up guys. All we have is hope and pray one of them sees the light and develops into a difference maker.... but that like trying to win big money by buying scratchers... The language still being thrown around is that we aren't in a full rebuild, or don't want one....HP doesn't want one....then he should sell the team if he can't afford the team to suck for years, because news flash to him...the team is going to suck for 5+ years and probably won't even make the playoffs let alone be a contender. Obviously the only problem with that is the team needs to stay in SJ... |
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NB Finfan
Draft Eligible
Seal'd in Teal
Posts: 28
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Post by NB Finfan on Feb 27, 2023 11:19:24 GMT -8
Well if this isn't a shot across the bow to the remaining Sharks with "move clause" contracts that their chance of a cup in a teal sweater is not likely anytime soon then I don't know what is. Will this make them more receptive to a move? Time will tell. One thing to keep in mind is the assets we accrued in this trade may be used to acquire future assets and may not be part of the Sharks long term plans. My conclusion is we are in the tear down phase of a rebuild and don't know what the build phase looks like yet. My assumption at the moment is the plan is build from the net out and to get younger and faster.
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Post by peanutgallery on Feb 27, 2023 11:23:26 GMT -8
I think this take from the Hockey News sums it up well:
“San Jose traded the big fish at this year’s deadline and netted a bunch of stuff. The picks are magic beans.”
It’s unlikely any of those prospects turns into a star (though they could be good supporting pieces), so our hope lies in getting something valuable out of those draft picks.
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Post by peanutgallery on Feb 27, 2023 11:33:01 GMT -8
My conclusion is we are in the tear down phase of a rebuild and don't know what the build phase looks like yet. My assumption at the moment is the plan is build from the net out and to get younger and faster. I like this viewpoint. It’s emotionally healthier to not look too closely at what they are building right now because we probably aren’t at that point yet. That should keep me going until next year! (Who am I kidding? I’ll have an emotional reaction to every move they make!) |
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Post by SurfCitySharksFan on Feb 27, 2023 12:12:45 GMT -8
There were basically 4 paths forward with Timo. Sign him to a big $8M+, 8 year extension; Sign him to a $10M, 1 year qualifying offer; Trade him at the deadline; or trade him before the draft. The first gets us yet another big long contract (imagine the uproar). The second cripples the cap for next year and puts us in the same place this time next year. The fourth choice puts us in even less of a bargaining position than we were right now. Since all indications were that the Sharks had no plan on doing the 1st or the 2nd choice (and all the other GMs knew that), the bargaining position was weak to start with. Then it was basically choose the best offer from the 3-4 teams that sounded interested in Timo. It would be interesting to see what the other teams offered up compared to NJ.
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Post by NashvilleShark on Feb 27, 2023 12:13:59 GMT -8
Well if this isn't a shot across the bow to the remaining Sharks with "move clause" contracts that their chance of a cup in a teal sweater is not likely anytime soon then I don't know what is. Will this make them more receptive to a move? The challenge isn't going to be whether they'd be more receptive to moves. The challenge would be salary retention on each of those players. Karl is the first obvious person to get moved with SJ having to retain salary. MEV has already stated numerous times he's not going anywhere. Frankly, I don't think winning a Cup matters to him at this point. He'll probably be perfectly OK playing out his current contract and then retiring from the game. That leaves Cooch and Tomas. Hertl has two more seasons of a full NMC. Cooch's is modified. I see Cooch being open to being moved over Tomas. His window to chase a Cup is closing, so maybe he gets moved by next season's TDL. He'd take the last available spot for salary retention until after 2025 when Burn's comes off the books, which happens to coincide with the last season of Tomas' full NMC. |
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Post by NashvilleShark on Feb 27, 2023 12:24:00 GMT -8
There were basically 4 paths forward with Timo. Sign him to a big $8M+, 8 year extension; Sign him to a $10M, 1 year qualifying offer; Trade him at the deadline; or trade him before the draft. The first gets us yet another big long contract (imagine the uproar). The second cripples the cap for next year and puts us in the same place this time next year. The fourth choice puts us in even less of a bargaining position than we were right now. Since all indications were that the Sharks had no plan on doing the 1st or the 2nd choice (and all the other GMs knew that), the bargaining position was weak to start with. Then it was basically choose the best offer from the 3-4 teams that sounded interested in Timo. It would be interesting to see what the other teams offered up compared to NJ. Signing Timo to the 1 year QO has a secondary branch to it. Not only does SJ end up in the same spot next season they could arguably end up having zero trade partners. Timo could walk as an UFA and a team could pick him up in FA without having to surrender picks/prospects. This was the time to trade Timo. It's just unfortunate that the return was, at face value, pretty underwhelming. |
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NB Finfan
Draft Eligible
Seal'd in Teal
Posts: 28
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Post by NB Finfan on Feb 27, 2023 12:53:10 GMT -8
Well if this isn't a shot across the bow to the remaining Sharks with "move clause" contracts that their chance of a cup in a teal sweater is not likely anytime soon then I don't know what is. Will this make them more receptive to a move? The challenge isn't going to be whether they'd be more receptive to moves. The challenge would be salary retention on each of those players. Karl is the first obvious person to get moved with SJ having to retain salary. MEV has already stated numerous times he's not going anywhere. Frankly, I don't think winning a Cup matters to him at this point. He'll probably be perfectly OK playing out his current contract and then retiring from the game. That leaves Cooch and Tomas. Hertl has two more seasons of a full NMC. Cooch's is modified. I see Cooch being open to being moved over Tomas. His window to chase a Cup is closing, so maybe he gets moved by next season's TDL. He'd take the last available spot for salary retention until after 2025 when Burn's comes off the books, which happens to coincide with the last season of Tomas' full NMC.
Unfortunately, I think you are correct about salary retention and Vlasic.
Based on GMMG's remarks it sounds like EK will be moved this summer. I would hope we wouldn't retain more than $2m of salary.
Cooch is interesting. He is still a real good forward but possesses average speed for his price tag. He may be open to a trade but who knows what the market will be for him. Will have to see what happens here.
I can't see Tomas being moved anytime soon.
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Post by sonofsnowshower2 on Feb 27, 2023 13:12:57 GMT -8
The challenge isn't going to be whether they'd be more receptive to moves. The challenge would be salary retention on each of those players. Karl is the first obvious person to get moved with SJ having to retain salary. MEV has already stated numerous times he's not going anywhere. Frankly, I don't think winning a Cup matters to him at this point. He'll probably be perfectly OK playing out his current contract and then retiring from the game. That leaves Cooch and Tomas. Hertl has two more seasons of a full NMC. Cooch's is modified. I see Cooch being open to being moved over Tomas. His window to chase a Cup is closing, so maybe he gets moved by next season's TDL. He'd take the last available spot for salary retention until after 2025 when Burn's comes off the books, which happens to coincide with the last season of Tomas' full NMC.
Unfortunately, I think you are correct about salary retention and Vlasic.
Based on GMMG's remarks it sounds like EK will be moved this summer. I would hope we wouldn't retain more than $2m of salary.
Cooch is interesting. He is still a real good forward but possesses average speed for his price tag. He may be open to a trade but who knows what the market will be for him. Will have to see what happens here.
I can't see Tomas being moved anytime soon.
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Post by sonofsnowshower2 on Feb 27, 2023 13:13:52 GMT -8
Cooch has a history of goal scoring in the playoffs. That makes him interesting to speculate about.
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Post by sonofsnowshower2 on Feb 27, 2023 13:15:59 GMT -8
The challenge isn't going to be whether they'd be more receptive to moves. The challenge would be salary retention on each of those players. Karl is the first obvious person to get moved with SJ having to retain salary. MEV has already stated numerous times he's not going anywhere. Frankly, I don't think winning a Cup matters to him at this point. He'll probably be perfectly OK playing out his current contract and then retiring from the game. That leaves Cooch and Tomas. Hertl has two more seasons of a full NMC. Cooch's is modified. I see Cooch being open to being moved over Tomas. His window to chase a Cup is closing, so maybe he gets moved by next season's TDL. He'd take the last available spot for salary retention until after 2025 when Burn's comes off the books, which happens to coincide with the last season of Tomas' full NMC.
Unfortunately, I think you are correct about salary retention and Vlasic.
Based on GMMG's remarks it sounds like EK will be moved this summer. I would hope we wouldn't retain more than $2m of salary.
Cooch is interesting. He is still a real good forward but possesses average speed for his price tag. He may be open to a trade but who knows what the market will be for him. Will have to see what happens here.
I can't see Tomas being moved anytime soon.
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Post by sonofsnowshower2 on Feb 27, 2023 13:17:49 GMT -8
This morning on the radio I heard the KCBS guy remind the audience that at some point earlier this season Grier said that everyone is on the table except for Hertl. If Grier still feels that way, the next few days could be interesting.
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Post by NashvilleShark on Feb 27, 2023 14:25:11 GMT -8
Cooch has a history of goal scoring in the playoffs. That makes him interesting to speculate about. Exactly, and this is why I believe he still shouldn't be left out of any trade speculation. It's just a matter of how much to retain? Thirty percent would be $2.5M. Does any current playoff bound team have $5.6M of cap they'd be willing to tie up for another 4 years? Maybe not, and I think retaining more than that would be a bad move by MG. That's why I believe any deal with regard to Cooch happens in the summer or by next year's TDL. Karl needs to be the priority at this time. |
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Post by seiched on Feb 27, 2023 14:38:20 GMT -8
Cooch has a history of goal scoring in the playoffs. That makes him interesting to speculate about. Exactly, and this is why I believe he still shouldn't be left out of any trade speculation. It's just a matter of how much to retain? Thirty percent would be $2.5M. Does any current playoff bound team have $5.6M of cap they'd be willing to tie up for another 4 years? Maybe not, and I think retaining more than that would be a bad move by MG. That's why I believe any deal with regard to Cooch happens in the summer or by next year's TDL. Karl needs to be the priority at this time. I don't agree...we should retain whatever is needed to get a deal done on one of our long term contracts on declining assets. EK65 is worth the most in terms of value, we can probably only do 1 more long term salary retention for flexibility sake, but we will not be competitive for 5+ years, so why hold back from getting assets....no need to cap space, no UFA is signing with us....the only thing holding us back is probably ownership, dude is worth 10B....come on now... |
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Post by jamnjon on Feb 27, 2023 15:39:34 GMT -8
Wow, we actually got a FtF article on the trade. I don't know that we'll get anything on the TDL though since I had heard something about through the end of February. |
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Post by jamnjon on Feb 27, 2023 15:55:11 GMT -8
Harrington's on waivers, should we claim him? =D
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Post by peanutgallery on Feb 27, 2023 16:10:58 GMT -8
Harrington's on waivers, should we claim him? =D lol! |
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Post by SurfCitySharksFan on Feb 27, 2023 16:17:37 GMT -8
Harrington's on waivers, should we claim him? =D If he's better than any of the other remaining Shark D-men, why not? |
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Post by jamnjon on Feb 27, 2023 16:51:59 GMT -8
Harrington's on waivers, should we claim him? =D If he's better than any of the other remaining Shark D-men, why not? A big part of the reason he was traded out was to free up contract slots. The team's at 48/50 per capfriendly, so if they take him back they're down to 1 slot. Depending what other trades they make they could need that space. |
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Post by caopine on Feb 27, 2023 17:06:30 GMT -8
I guess the question is if we actually got anywhere close to what NJ was truly willing to give up at their limit. To get to that point, we either have to have a better competing offer, they have to think we have a better competing offer, or we have to be willing to walk away. Maybe it's totally unrealistic but just leaving some ambiguity that we might keep Timo and figure out a way to build around him would help. Regardless of the specific pieces, NJ knew that we were 100% dumping him at the trade deadline. Also I wonder how much Grier's time with the Devil's made a difference.
Oh well- bottom two finish seems very realistic now both without Timo and also this can't be great for team morale.
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Post by jamnjon on Feb 27, 2023 17:20:07 GMT -8
this can't be great for team morale. The [team being beaten] will continue until morale improves. |
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Post by NashvilleShark on Feb 27, 2023 17:20:23 GMT -8
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Post by NashvilleShark on Feb 27, 2023 17:22:50 GMT -8
this can't be great for team morale. The [team being beaten] will continue until morale improves. This trade may explain why Karl's play has been a bit off. Even though Timo was - and still is apparently - injured I'm sure Karl knew Timo was on his way out the door. I wonder if his play is going to now fall off a cliff? |
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Post by dilacerated on Feb 27, 2023 17:32:38 GMT -8
There's always a naysayer in every bunch, but not this time. Devils' fans are universally ecstatic about this trade. They've every reason to be. Fitzgerald won this for them. |
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Post by dilacerated on Feb 27, 2023 17:41:12 GMT -8
The [team being beaten] will continue until morale improves. This trade may explain why Karl's play has been a bit off. Even though Timo was - and still is apparently - injured I'm sure Karl knew Timo was on his way out the door. I wonder if his play is going to now fall off a cliff? For the sake of the tank I sure hope it does! |
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